Melannen

ironboobs:

"Oh captain, my captain."

I’ve been reading more writing books than usual lately, and I am very tired of ‘writing advice’ that takes as an unexamined truth that the entire universe exists for the purposes of heterosexual men.

Not exhausted - exhausted, as a word, is far too self-contained, too full of the implication that there was discrete event that exhausted me but had a beginning and an end - I am just very

very

very

very tired.

.

bro-stoevsky:

 

Trying to combine threads (but spoiler I suck at this). So THURSDAY times include:

1. 9:40 and 10:40 at Gallery Place

2. 9:20 and 10:15 in Silver Spring

and then a bunch of other stuff I haven’t heard of

These seeming pretty equivalent, it’s basically what location is most convenient for people. 

Hi guys! Reviving thread and tagging people because I am relentless. treblemirinlens can’t do late on Thursday — there’s also a 7:10 and 7:40 in Silver Spring and Gallery place respectively. 

I can also do saturday before 2 or after about 6. 

Does anyone have thoughts? 

Tagging so you get a ~purple ~notification: shinelikethunder, melannen, amarguerite, treblemirinlens, but please feel welcome and encouraged to attend if I forgot to tag you or if you just feel like attending

I could probably do Thursday at 7:40 and I could do Saturday after 6 (although after 6:30 is probably more realistic.) (hurrah!)

mumblingsage:

melannen:

mumblingsage:

mswyrr:

selenay936:

But anyway, I recently sat down to figure out exactly where Steve’s local gay bars would be, or where the closest ones would be, for purposes of plotting things out, and uh … turns out that Steve Rogers lived in the MIDDLE of the biggest cruising/gay bar/gay hangouts area of Brooklyn. Like, a couple blocks from the St. George Hotel, which was almost entirely gay by the early 40s. 

This is actually a really great, fascinating essay on the area and time Steve grew up in. The whole idea that Steve (and Bucky even more) would be completely, totally clueless seems even more ridiculous when you really look at this stuff.

it’s weird to me that this doesn’t mention that, yes, queerness was visible in NYC when Steve was young

but men would not have thought of themselves as all being “gay” or “homosexual” or “bisexual” etc

the research the poster is drawing on is from the historian George Chauncey and is *huge point* is that there was a different non-hetero/homo binary way of understanding sexuality, particularly among working class communities

so men with traditionally masculine gender expression who had sex with other men but were always on top saw themselves as Normal and the men they fucked as “perverts”/”fairies”/etc

two men having sex did not see themselves as having an identity in common any more than a “Normal” man having sex with a woman saw himself having common cause with her

calling these areas “gay cruising/gay bars/gay hangouts” is imposing our contemporary understandings of sexuality on people who would not have used them

steve would not be innocent of sexuality, but he might very well have to adjust to the fact that the dominant mode of understanding it now is, in fact, different

A thing I haven’t been able to find answers on, is: was the idea that any guy should be good with having his cock sucked, by anybody? To a manly man, are men and women interchangeable? 

Like, there’s something queer going on there, quite possible weirder to the modern viewer than our current constructions of sexuality would be to people of that time. Or possibly not. As I said, it’s been a question I can’t find answers too. 

There’s actually a lot going on that’s really complicated with this, but maybe the super-short version is that most people in that milieu didn’t separate the concepts of “gender” and “sexuality” in the same ways we do. So having sex with a “fairy” wasn’t the same as having sex with a “normal man”, because fairies weren’t exactly men. (There was also a queer subculture that was more similar to what we think of as modern gay identity, by the way, it’s not as simple as “gay” didn’t exist; it was all a tangle of complicated intersecting identities, of gender/class/sexuality/culture/etc. Much like glbt identity today, in that way, and Steve being an art student from a working-class neighborhood would have been exposed to multiple ways of being queer.)

So basically, it’s not that Steve Rogers would be confused by the fact that gay, bi, trans, and genderqueer people exist; he would just be really confused by the categories we put them in now and why we separate them out that way instead of other ways. And he’d be confused by the words we use to describe them - most of the words existed in the 30s and 40s, but meant entirely different things. (“Coming Out” meant coming out to yourself and to the rest of the culture, usually including your first same-sex sexual experience - if Tony asks Steve when he’s finally going to come out, Steve will think he’s telling him he needs to just get over the internalized denial and go have sex with a dude already, not that he needs to go on Good Morning America. “Bisexual” meant “has elements of both male and female sexes” - genderqueer or transgender, nothing to do with who you’re attracted to; if Tony tells Steve he’s bisexual, Steve will assume he’s saying he crossdresses, at minimum. “Queer” more or less meant “Gay but otherwise gender-conforming”; “Gay” meant “Campy.” And so on.

I have an ebook copy of Chauncey’s book on Gay New York if you want to message me for it; the above is way way simplified from what you actually get in the source.

Thanks for the offer, but I’m not planning on writing 1940s fic (or Cap fic, alas) anytime soon. Really I’m just asking in an effort to pin down something that I’ve been curious about for years (as in, it’s not a ship-specific question), namely, is there a word for a guy who’d be basically gender-conforming but “fairy-sexual”? Is that a thing that happened? How much/how little did it jibe with prevailing norms? 

There are guys like that described in Chauncey’s book, but, well, it’s complicated. “Fairy-sexual” wasn’t a thing, per se. Some men who exclusively had sex with fairies would be thought of more like having a kink than a identity, probably. Some men who were part of that subculture of normal men picking up “trade” would have identified with the middle-class same-sex-attracted “queer” men while still being more active in the working-class subculture. Some of of the “fairies” and some of the “normal” men might have *been* middle-class queer-identified men, going undercover for some adventure and easy sex - in some cases, people moved fluidly between various permutations of these identities. And then some men would have exclusively had sex with fairies for some period of their lives, and then married women and started families, and maybe still picked up trade on the side - if a man spent his whole life only having sex with fairies, he would be considered deviant more or less the same way as a man who spent his whole life only having short affairs with women he met in bars; more strange for not getting married than for not having sex with women. And some men would have paired up long-term with fairies who had basically transitioned to women, and lived in common-law heterosexual marriages with them. Basically, it was complicated and fluid and the umbrella identity of “fairy” also included a lot of very different ways of doing sexuality and gender. And to some extent, the idea of the “fairy” and the “normal man” was imposed from outside - by simplifying same-sex activity into normal men having sex with sexually available, gender-nonconforming fairies, straight society could erase all of the complexities while reconfirming gender roles. And that filtered back into gay culture at all levels too.

Basically, it’s complicated.

mumblingsage:

mswyrr:

selenay936:

But anyway, I recently sat down to figure out exactly where Steve’s local gay bars would be, or where the closest ones would be, for purposes of plotting things out, and uh … turns out that Steve Rogers lived in the MIDDLE of the biggest cruising/gay bar/gay hangouts area of Brooklyn. Like, a couple blocks from the St. George Hotel, which was almost entirely gay by the early 40s. 

This is actually a really great, fascinating essay on the area and time Steve grew up in. The whole idea that Steve (and Bucky even more) would be completely, totally clueless seems even more ridiculous when you really look at this stuff.

it’s weird to me that this doesn’t mention that, yes, queerness was visible in NYC when Steve was young

but men would not have thought of themselves as all being “gay” or “homosexual” or “bisexual” etc

the research the poster is drawing on is from the historian George Chauncey and is *huge point* is that there was a different non-hetero/homo binary way of understanding sexuality, particularly among working class communities

so men with traditionally masculine gender expression who had sex with other men but were always on top saw themselves as Normal and the men they fucked as “perverts”/”fairies”/etc

two men having sex did not see themselves as having an identity in common any more than a “Normal” man having sex with a woman saw himself having common cause with her

calling these areas “gay cruising/gay bars/gay hangouts” is imposing our contemporary understandings of sexuality on people who would not have used them

steve would not be innocent of sexuality, but he might very well have to adjust to the fact that the dominant mode of understanding it now is, in fact, different

A thing I haven’t been able to find answers on, is: was the idea that any guy should be good with having his cock sucked, by anybody? To a manly man, are men and women interchangeable? 

Like, there’s something queer going on there, quite possible weirder to the modern viewer than our current constructions of sexuality would be to people of that time. Or possibly not. As I said, it’s been a question I can’t find answers too. 

There’s actually a lot going on that’s really complicated with this, but maybe the super-short version is that most people in that milieu didn’t separate the concepts of “gender” and “sexuality” in the same ways we do. So having sex with a “fairy” wasn’t the same as having sex with a “normal man”, because fairies weren’t exactly men. (There was also a queer subculture that was more similar to what we think of as modern gay identity, by the way, it’s not as simple as “gay” didn’t exist; it was all a tangle of complicated intersecting identities, of gender/class/sexuality/culture/etc. Much like glbt identity today, in that way, and Steve being an art student from a working-class neighborhood would have been exposed to multiple ways of being queer.)

So basically, it’s not that Steve Rogers would be confused by the fact that gay, bi, trans, and genderqueer people exist; he would just be really confused by the categories we put them in now and why we separate them out that way instead of other ways. And he’d be confused by the words we use to describe them - most of the words existed in the 30s and 40s, but meant entirely different things.

"Coming Out" meant coming out to yourself and to the rest of the subculture, usually including your first same-sex sexual experience - if Tony asks Steve when he’s finally going to come out, Steve will think he’s telling him he needs to just get over the internalized denial and go have sex with a dude already, not that he needs to go on Good Morning America. "Bisexual" meant "has elements of both male and female sexes" - genderqueer or transgender, nothing to do with who you’re attracted to; if Tony tells Steve he’s bisexual, Steve will assume he’s saying he crossdresses, at minimum. "Queer" more or less meant "Gay but otherwise gender-conforming"; "Gay" meant "Campy." And so on.

I have an ebook copy of Chauncey’s book on Gay New York if you want to message me for it; the above is way way simplified from what you actually get in the source.

Spent part of the evening sorting eggs into categories by color and size.

I guess that makes me an Eggtypologist.

Ay? :D AY? :D

Spent part of the evening sorting eggs into categories by color and size.

I guess that makes me an Eggtypologist.

Ay? :D AY? :D

simplyirenic:

bro-stoevsky:

vejiicakes:

bro-stoevsky replied to your post: Just finished getting roomie to sit th…

when is nyc?

IDKKKK somebody figure out a plan for miseres @ broadwa-

1, 2, 3, NOT IT

simplyirenic replied to your post: Just finished getting roomie…

I will probably have to cancel something/take leave if we do it on the weekend (which is fine because MISERES) so yeah I’m basically at the more lead time the better. …also I have never been to a Broadway show and have no idea what is involved in getting tickets. Also there is one weekend in May where I will be at a house party all weekend but I don’t remember which one. (Have also still never seen les mis at all, lalalala, so this will exciting.)

146 plays

The current soundtrack of my life.

(It’s even better with the video synced in, though.)

So that thing that deadlyflan told me to tell the internet last night has gone slightly viral, by which I mean just under 2400 notes in just about 24 hours.I’m sorry if you didn’t already realize that I was exactly geeky enough to do this the minute I had a sufficiently popular post, but with the help of a spreadsheet and Google Tables, I have made a network graph of all the reblogs in the first 2000 notes.Thank you to lnich for reblogging, because gyzym reblogged it from dreadfulwanderings who reblogged it from perilousseas who got it from killerville who got it from dilithiumnips who got it from @raijumykaiju who got it from @dorianthewellendowed who got it from lucyliuism who got it from @rubato who got it from namingoflights who got it from @knightoftaurus who got it from hellotrickster who got it from @jerakeenc who got it from talitha78 who got it from lnich, and once gyzym got it there was no holding it back.

So that thing that deadlyflan told me to tell the internet last night has gone slightly viral, by which I mean just under 2400 notes in just about 24 hours.

I’m sorry if you didn’t already realize that I was exactly geeky enough to do this the minute I had a sufficiently popular post, but with the help of a spreadsheet and Google Tables, I have made a network graph of all the reblogs in the first 2000 notes.

Thank you to lnich for reblogging, because gyzym reblogged it from dreadfulwanderings who reblogged it from perilousseas who got it from killerville who got it from dilithiumnips who got it from @raijumykaiju who got it from @dorianthewellendowed who got it from lucyliuism who got it from @rubato who got it from namingoflights who got it from @knightoftaurus who got it from hellotrickster who got it from @jerakeenc who got it from talitha78 who got it from lnich, and once gyzym got it there was no holding it back.

bro-stoevsky:

shinelikethunder:

eccecorinna:

watertightvines:

I do feel that fandom, in its distress over Bucky’s general existence, has neglected something very important:

BUCKY IS NOW WANDERING AROUND DC UNSUPERVISED AND CONFUSED

Does he figure out the SmarTrip machine?

Does he wait patiently for Silver Line trains?

Does he like cupcakes?

Does he get to visit the dinosaur part of the Natural History Museum before it closes for renovations?

THESE ARE THE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS

DOES HE REMEMBER TO CHECK FOR WEEKEND TRACK WORK

does he know the good times to go to the zoo

does he read Capital Weather Gang yet

who signed him up for a DC public library card

I feel this is relevant to melannen, bro-stoevsky, shewhowishes, and our post-Cap-2 discussion of Bucky wandering into a Ben & Jerry’s and staring into the distance with a slightly haunted expression while the poor girl behind the counter tries to ask him what kind of ice cream he wants. (They’re probably running a special Captain America themed flavor, too.)

"Excuse me," a woman said, putting her hand on the Winter Soldier’s elbow outside of the Ben and Jerry’s in Dupont, which was honoring free cone day. He almost dropped his ice cream in surprise, but held onto it. "Can you tell me how to get to the White House? I’m not sure if I should take the Metro to Elephant Plaza or Smithsonian. Do you know?" 

The Winter Soldier stared at her, so she pointed out the landmark, glittering in the sunlight at the other end of town. “I just need to get that way, to the White House.”

"That’s the United States Capitol," said the Winter Soldier. 

"Are you sure?"

"No," said the Winter Soldier, turning to leave with his ice cream.

He wasn’t sure of anything.

An hour later he found himself in Meridian Hill. He went into the park. His ice cream had melted on the aspirationally buff curves of his metal arm, and it was attracting bees. He found himself facing a tired-looking bronze and granite statue, also surrounded by bees due to the melting frappucino in spilled at the statue’s feet. 

BUCHANAN, said the inscription above the statue, and to one side, JAMES BUCHANAN OF PENNSYLVANIA.

The Winter Soldier felt a deep sense of loss, or discomfort, seeing those words. Something was missing from him as he was, taken or forgotten or lost, and thinking hard he identified it: the ice cream.

He needed a fresh ice cream. 

I already wrote the one where he gets a library card. (But Bro’s, of course, is better, because I do not actually live inside the Beltway.)

Important intelligence analysis

Headcanon: Abed only got his job at SHIELD as a spousal benefit when they recruited Troy for their gadgets division

Evidence, incontrovertible: When everything else in Fury’s car was broken, what was still 100% operational? THE AIR CONDITIONING.

Bunny, related: Abed meets Sam while visiting Troy in the hospital and explains to him, scene by scene, why he is definitely the lead in a romcom, not the sidekick in an action movie.